From owner-ietf-moderation@dokka.maxware.no Tue Oct 20 14:18:29 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by dokka.maxware.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA28738 for ietf-moderation-list; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:18:29 +0200 Received: from alden ([10.128.1.82]) by dokka.maxware.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA28732 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:18:26 +0200 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19981020140717.00eea1d0@dokka.maxware.no> X-Sender: hta@dokka.maxware.no X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:07:17 +0200 To: ietf-moderation@alvestrand.no From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand Subject: about the Flemmers.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-ietf-moderation@dokka.maxware.no Precedence: bulk have you noted that the flemmers have filters for each other? I saw Jim Fleming and Bob Allisat declaring mutual filtering the other day, and today Bob Allisat declares that he's filtering Karl Denninger.... Harald A -- Harald Tveit Alvestrand, Maxware, Norway Harald.Alvestrand@maxware.no From owner-ietf-moderation@dokka.maxware.no Tue Oct 20 17:25:10 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by dokka.maxware.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA31654 for ietf-moderation-list; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:25:10 +0200 Received: from monsoon.dial.pipex.net (monsoon.dial.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by dokka.maxware.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA31650 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 17:25:04 +0200 Received: (qmail 13088 invoked from network); 20 Oct 1998 15:24:55 -0000 Received: from usern968.uk.uudial.com (HELO GK-Acer) (193.149.86.239) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 20 Oct 1998 15:24:55 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981020160805.01078254@pop.dial.pipex.com> X-Sender: maiw03@pop.dial.pipex.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 16:25:02 +0100 To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand From: Graham Klyne Subject: Re: about the Flemmers.... Cc: ietf-moderation@alvestrand.no Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-ietf-moderation@dokka.maxware.no Precedence: bulk At 14:07 20/10/98 +0200, Harald Tveit Alvestrand wrote: >have you noted that the flemmers have filters for each other? > >I saw Jim Fleming and Bob Allisat declaring mutual filtering the other >day, and today Bob Allisat declares that he's filtering Karl Denninger.... :-) Poachers turned gamekeepers, eh? #g ------------ Graham Klyne (GK@ACM.ORG) From owner-ietf-moderation@dokka.maxware.no Tue Oct 20 19:13:44 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by dokka.maxware.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA00585 for ietf-moderation-list; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 19:13:44 +0200 Received: from anis.crucible.com ([208.242.218.190]) by dokka.maxware.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA00581 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 19:13:41 +0200 Received: from CARROT (CARROT [208.242.218.191]) by anis.crucible.com (NTMail 3.03.0017/1.ad24) with ESMTP id la000895 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:59:58 +0100 From: "Brian Raney" Organization: Crudites To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:00:09 -7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: filterers and list repair Reply-to: brianr@crudites.com CC: ietf-moderation@alvestrand.no In-reply-to: <3.0.2.32.19981020140717.00eea1d0@dokka.maxware.no> Message-Id: <16595860504489@crucible.com> Sender: owner-ietf-moderation@dokka.maxware.no Precedence: bulk Harold said: > have you noted that the flemmers have filters for each other? I'll bet this is just an appropriation of the attack used upon them. I doubt the super active posters filter anything on the chance there might be something about them, or could be used against someone else, in any particular message. Also, I noticed a little hiccup on the ietf list yesterday. I assumed some thoughtless messages were being derailed but I see at least some made it through anyway. Is it appropirate for us to discuss the actual events when the list has been "repaired" from spam attacks? It's probably safer for us to stick to proposed solutions but some sort of statistical information might be useful for the development of counter measures as well as some sort of BCP document. brianr ps: I expected to see more conspiracy ravings (you know what they say about cardiac deaths and politically important people). > Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 14:07:17 +0200 > To: ietf-moderation@alvestrand.no > From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand > Subject: about the Flemmers.... > have you noted that the flemmers have filters for each other? > > I saw Jim Fleming and Bob Allisat declaring mutual filtering the other > day, and today Bob Allisat declares that he's filtering Karl Denninger.... > > Harald A > > -- > Harald Tveit Alvestrand, Maxware, Norway > Harald.Alvestrand@maxware.no > > From owner-ietf-moderation@dokka.maxware.no Tue Oct 20 19:13:50 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by dokka.maxware.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA00597 for ietf-moderation-list; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 19:13:50 +0200 Received: from anis.crucible.com ([208.242.218.190]) by dokka.maxware.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA00582 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 19:13:41 +0200 Received: from CARROT (CARROT [208.242.218.191]) by anis.crucible.com (NTMail 3.03.0017/1.ad24) with ESMTP id na000897 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 09:59:59 +0100 From: "Brian Raney" Organization: Crudites To: peterd@Bunyip.Com (Peter Deutsch) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 10:03:42 -7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: buggings Reply-to: brianr@crudites.com CC: ietf-moderation@alvestrand.no Message-Id: <16595909604490@crucible.com> Sender: owner-ietf-moderation@dokka.maxware.no Precedence: bulk Peter, I thought it might be appropriate to bug you for a posting of the current state of your specifications. I'm not in any rush but I wanted you to know I'm interested (as I imagine the people on this list are). thanks, brianr From owner-ietf-moderation@dokka.maxware.no Tue Oct 20 19:43:17 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by dokka.maxware.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA01022 for ietf-moderation-list; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 19:43:17 +0200 Received: from mocha.bunyip.com (mocha.Bunyip.Com [192.197.208.1]) by dokka.maxware.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA01019 for ; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 19:43:10 +0200 Received: (from peterd@localhost) by mocha.bunyip.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA08826; Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:43:04 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199810201743.NAA08826@mocha.bunyip.com> From: peterd@Bunyip.Com (Peter Deutsch) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 13:43:04 -0400 In-Reply-To: "Brian Raney"'s message as of Oct 20, 10:03 X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.2.5 10/14/92) To: brianr@crudites.com Subject: Re: buggings Cc: ietf-moderation@alvestrand.no Sender: owner-ietf-moderation@dokka.maxware.no Precedence: bulk [ You wrote: ] > > > Peter, > > I thought it might be appropriate to bug you for a posting of > the current state of your specifications. I'm not in any rush but I > wanted you to know I'm interested (as I imagine the people on this > list are). A hundred apologies on this. I've been reading email but have otherwise been flat on my back with a recurring virus for several weeks. I've a first draft of the doc in place but wanted to add in a few diagrams and do a cleanup pass. This should only be a day's work and I've scheduled the next two days working at home (to allow for interruptions :-) If all goes well I should be able to post it tomorrow night, or at worst some time Thursday. - peterd -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Peter Deutsch, (514) 875-8611 (phone) Bunyip Information Systems Inc. (514) 875-8134 (fax) http://www.bunyip.com "The survey is not designed to permit statistically valid comparisons with past ones. Still, the tables show some interesting trends." - from Dun & Bradstreet's fifth annual exclusive survey for Marketing magazine ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From owner-ietf-moderation@dokka.maxware.no Thu Oct 22 07:08:58 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by dokka.maxware.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA29905 for ietf-moderation-list; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 07:08:58 +0200 Received: from alden ([10.128.9.11]) by dokka.maxware.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA29895; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 07:08:47 +0200 Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19981021144336.00ea47f0@dokka.maxware.no> X-Sender: hta@dokka.maxware.no X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.2 (32) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 14:43:36 +0200 To: brianr@crudites.com From: Harald Tveit Alvestrand Subject: Re: filterers and list repair Cc: ietf-moderation@alvestrand.no In-Reply-To: <16595860504489@crucible.com> References: <3.0.2.32.19981020140717.00eea1d0@dokka.maxware.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-ietf-moderation@dokka.maxware.no Precedence: bulk At 10:00 20.10.98 -7, Brian Raney wrote: >Also, I noticed a little hiccup on the ietf list yesterday. I >assumed some thoughtless messages were being derailed but I see at >least some made it through anyway. Is it appropirate for us to >discuss the actual events when the list has been "repaired" from spam >attacks? not sure which you were thinking of - the delay in adding Karl Denninger to the to-be-censored list was only due to my not being in the office when he started foaming at the mouth. Were there others? Any system involving human judgment has to have delay. Harald -- Harald Tveit Alvestrand, Maxware, Norway Harald.Alvestrand@maxware.no From owner-ietf-moderation@dokka.maxware.no Thu Oct 22 16:24:56 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by dokka.maxware.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA04473 for ietf-moderation-list; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 16:24:56 +0200 Received: from monsoon.dial.pipex.net (monsoon.dial.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by dokka.maxware.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA04470 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 16:24:53 +0200 Received: (qmail 11383 invoked from network); 22 Oct 1998 14:24:44 -0000 Received: from userb889.uk.uudial.com (HELO GK-Acer) (193.149.94.110) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 22 Oct 1998 14:24:44 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19981022114737.01364bc0@pop.dial.pipex.com> X-Sender: maiw03@pop.dial.pipex.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 15:24:49 +0100 To: ietf-moderation@alvestrand.no From: Graham Klyne Subject: Re: Off-topic postings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-ietf-moderation@dokka.maxware.no Precedence: bulk >Not if the list server were to allow silent subscribes or some other >registration mechanism where they were known to the server but the server >didn't directly distribute to them. The exploders could even be smart >enough to do remote registration if they were 'trusted' by the main >server... Reading this, I wondered if suggested statistics gathering and control mechanisms might usefully operate to restrict the frequency of postings from unsubscribed list participants. If you subscribe, you get unlimited posting frequency. Otherwise, you get rationed to (say) 1 per day. Just a thought. #g At 14:11 21/10/98 -0700, you wrote: > > >On Wed, 21 Oct 1998, Andy Bierman wrote: > >> Brant Knudson wrote: >> >... >> > (run) WG (07/98). Here is a quote from "DON'T SPEW : A Set of >> > Guidelines for Mass Unsolicited Mailings and Postings (spam*)"[1], page >> > 10: >> > If you are running a mailing-list, be sure to allow postings by >> > subscribers only. Make sure your charter forbids any off-topic >> > posts. There is another spam-related problem with mailing-lists >> >> this doesn't work. Many IETF lists (including the 2 I run) contain >> lots of exploder addresses (e.g. incoming-rmonmib@foobar.com). >> Filtering out all non-subscriber addresses breaks this desirable feature. >> (e.g. realuser@foobar.com would get dropped). > >Not if the list server were to allow silent subscribes or some other >registration mechanism where they were known to the server but the server >didn't directly distribute to them. The exploders could even be smart >enough to do remote registration if they were 'trusted' by the main >server... > >Dave Morris > >- >This message was passed through ietf+censored@alvestrand.no, which >is a sublist of ietf@ietf.org. Not all messages are passed. >Decisions on what to pass are made solely by Harald Alvestrand. > ------------ Graham Klyne (GK@ACM.ORG) From owner-ietf-moderation@dokka.maxware.no Thu Oct 22 18:41:17 1998 Received: (from majordomo@localhost) by dokka.maxware.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA07009 for ietf-moderation-list; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 18:41:17 +0200 Received: from anis.crucible.com ([208.242.218.190]) by dokka.maxware.no (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA07001 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 18:41:10 +0200 Received: from CARROT (CARROT [208.242.218.191]) by anis.crucible.com (NTMail 3.03.0017/1.ad24) with ESMTP id aa000910 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:26:28 +0100 From: "Brian Raney" Organization: Crudites To: Harald Tveit Alvestrand , ietf-moderation@alvestrand.no Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 09:34:38 -7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: filterers and list repair Reply-to: brianr@crudites.com In-reply-to: <3.0.2.32.19981021144336.00ea47f0@dokka.maxware.no> References: <16595860504489@crucible.com> Message-Id: <16262860104661@crucible.com> Sender: owner-ietf-moderation@dokka.maxware.no Precedence: bulk > At 10:00 20.10.98 -7, Brian Raney wrote: > > >Also, I noticed a little hiccup on the ietf list yesterday. I > >assumed some thoughtless messages were being derailed but I see at > >least some made it through anyway. Is it appropirate for us to > >discuss the actual events when the list has been "repaired" from spam > >attacks? >Harold wrote: > not sure which you were thinking of - the delay in adding Karl Denninger > to the to-be-censored list was only due to my not being in the office > when he started foaming at the mouth. Were there others? Since the problem I'm most interested in is how to deal with subverts trying to derail the collaborative process, I subscribe to the unfiltered list. On that list there were a few re-posts of the same messages from different sources. I assumed that this was caused by some backup/restore effort on the list server host. Perhaps I'm a little too suspicious? brianr